[11:00 PM] not_a_seagull: Oh yeah, have I told you about the Team Bird 001 I'm doing yet?
[11:01 PM] Alice: You haven't but i've been peeking at your sandbox :wink:
[11:01 PM] Alice: Tell me about it tho :o
[11:01 PM] not_a_seagull: So in the past couple of tales I've been doing I've been setting up the birds spreading to alternate universes and making chaos
[11:02 PM] Alice: The threat of the birbs is everywhere
[11:02 PM] not_a_seagull: In the 001 it's from the perspective of a universe where the birds invaded but an astronaut saves everybody
[11:03 PM] not_a_seagull: I'm still working out the details of how that happens
[11:04 PM] Alice: Hm
[11:05 PM] Alice: Does it feature thoth?
[11:05 PM] not_a_seagull: Yeah it's gonna
[11:05 PM] not_a_seagull: So far my structure is:
[11:05 PM] not_a_seagull: astronaut goes to moon
[11:05 PM] not_a_seagull: astronaut accidentally broadcasts bird meme worldwide
[11:05 PM] not_a_seagull: meme brings thoth back from death and he starts killing anomalies
[11:05 PM] not_a_seagull: astronaut stops everything // TODO: add more here
[11:06 PM] not_a_seagull: implication that birds are also affecting other universes
[11:06 PM] Alice: Thoth in meme form?
[11:06 PM] not_a_seagull: No
[11:06 PM] not_a_seagull: Just the bird meme from Team Bird Series I
[11:07 PM] Alice: I mean really you can take the "astronaut saves everything" in wnt direction, doesn't need to be explicitly related to the moon/nibirdu etc.
[11:08 PM] Alice: You excel with multiverse stories lately it seems, and there's a lot you can do with that as a concept
[11:08 PM] not_a_seagull: yeah
[11:08 PM] not_a_seagull: Whole point of telling you is that I wanted to know if you wanted to collab on it with you
[11:09 PM] Alice: Oh! Wow
[11:10 PM] Alice: I can definitely get into that
[11:10 PM] Alice: It looks like you've already done most of the work; any part in particular you need help with?
[11:10 PM] not_a_seagull: I haven't even started on the big parts, I think
[11:11 PM] not_a_seagull: Mostly just the setup so far, is what I have
[11:11 PM] not_a_seagull: Mostly want help on fleshing out what happens once crap goes down with Thoth and all
[11:11 PM] Alice: Hm
[11:12 PM] Alice: How is your god/universe system set up? Like is there a pantheon of gods overseeing the multiverse as a whole, or a set for each universe?
[11:12 PM] Alice: Or, like, there's only one thoth and he comes from universe xyz
[11:12 PM] not_a_seagull: IMO there aren't really gods, as much as "really powerful entities that are gods for all intents and purposes"
[11:13 PM] not_a_seagull: That being said, I haven't put a lot of thought into that, especially concerning parallel universes/et al
[11:13 PM] Alice: The only concern/criticism i have with something like this is that the stakes become lowered due to there being multiple parallel universe, and the lore could get muddled
[11:13 PM] not_a_seagull: Yeah, especially with something as all-reaching as this
[11:14 PM] not_a_seagull: In my interpretation of parallel timelines, each timeline has neighbors
[11:14 PM] not_a_seagull: Whereas, if all of your neighbors are infected by the bird meme, you can't really escape it
[11:14 PM] not_a_seagull: hold on brb
[11:14 PM] Alice: Okie
[11:15 PM] Alice: I would imagine that each parallel world is different enough from one another
[11:16 PM] Alice: And that they're not just "earth but with a minute difference"
[11:17 PM] Alice: For instance, in SPC-507, there's the universe where the shark punching center exists, a waterworld earth, one dominated by bee obliteraters, and then our world
[11:20 PM] Alice: We could approach this multiverse by setting up a system or group of laws that prevents thoth from taking over 100 earths easily/prevents a powerful foundation from saving those 100 same earths
[11:21 PM] not_a_seagull: alright back
[11:21 PM] Alice: And of course, a motivation for thoth to expand beyond the singular universe (he becomes so hungry for knowledge after being exposed to the Library that he goes outside the universe; when he's reborn, he's gone mad; etc)
[11:21 PM] Alice: Welcome back! Just been listing my thoughts
[11:21 PM] not_a_seagull: Maybe he's already reincorporated himself inside one universe, and he's sending birdmen out to "conquer" other universes?
[11:21 PM] not_a_seagull: Yeah I agree with those thoughts
[11:23 PM] Alice: Maybe
[11:23 PM] Alice: I wouldn't want to tread too much on the ground we established in season 1
[11:24 PM] not_a_seagull: Yeah, it's like Snake, we don't want to loop back over ourselves
[11:24 PM] Alice: But at the same time, like, we can evolve some of the concepts and story beats we've already set up
[11:24 PM] not_a_seagull: Maybe he starts sending out birds to other planets to get their knowledge and the aliens have to get involved to stop him?
[11:24 PM] not_a_seagull: Also, we might want to expand on his motive a little
[11:25 PM] Alice: Did we ever get to the core reason why he wanted to control humanity? There's the "humans as slaves" concept, building paradise, and running from akheilos
[11:26 PM] not_a_seagull: I think our thing was that he wanted to bring slaves to the thoth planet to "build paradise"
[11:26 PM] Alice: But like, season 2 and this 001 would recontextualize some of those motivations when we introduce the greater multiverse that thoth wants to conquer
[11:27 PM] not_a_seagull: But what would his paradise be?
[11:28 PM] Alice: Like - and this might be a bit of a tangent - what if his "paradise" (nibirdu) is just another means to an end? (I don't want to go too crazy with this of course, just a thought)
[11:28 PM] not_a_seagull: A means to an end… to appeal to a higher power?
[11:30 PM] not_a_seagull: I don't know, just throwing a thought out
[11:31 PM] not_a_seagull: But what if the whole reason he wants to build this multidimensional paradise is for some other god?
[11:34 PM] Alice: That would be neat!
[11:35 PM] Alice: And he builds up his army of slaves and subjugates the planet as a showing of power
[11:35 PM] Alice: "look how worthy i am of greatness"
[11:36 PM] not_a_seagull: Yeah, now that we have his motive, now we know why he's trying to conquer the multiverse
[11:36 PM] not_a_seagull: But I feel like we might want to decide his modus operandi for getting into universes? In the 001 so far I'm saying "he uses the moon," but considering our other works that seems like retread ground
[11:37 PM] Alice: Yeah, it definitely would be retreading ground
[11:38 PM] Alice: Would you be inclined to expand on some throwaway lines from the serpent's hand doc?
[11:38 PM] not_a_seagull: I would definitely be, shoot
[11:38 PM] Alice: Well we reference a few things
[11:39 PM] Alice: Thoth working to build his own Wanderer's Library so-to-speak but with more esoteric and dark knowledge,
[11:39 PM] Alice: Thoth sharing the power of the Boundless Wellspring that all powerful entities/deities share,
[11:39 PM] Alice: Thoth having a "Mirror" in the form of Seshat, who passively holds knowledge
[11:40 PM] Alice: Also like the fact that we established that Thoth is welcome in the Library means he would have access to Ways and leylines(edited)
[11:42 PM] not_a_seagull: What if they (an archeologist team?) finds Seshat, accidentally release a shadow of Thoth or something, then he starts remanifesting, causing the birdocalypse, and tries to find the Boundless Wellspring (which is somewhere hard to reach)?
[11:43 PM] Alice: I would definitely like for the villain to not be explicitly "Thoth but slightly different"
A shadow of Thoth seems different enough
[11:44 PM] not_a_seagull: Have you played (or at least heard of) Super Paper Mario?
[11:44 PM] Alice: Heard of it, don't know much though
[11:45 PM] not_a_seagull: There's a scene near the finale where the main villain supposedly releases "A Shadow of his Power" to keep control over the main MacGuffin of the story
[11:45 PM] not_a_seagull: What if the shadow of Thoth is being controlled by the Thoths from other universes like a marionette, to try to direct him to the Wellspring
[11:46 PM] not_a_seagull: But it ends up being like Twitch Plays Pokemon, except instead of Red it's a god being pulled about in all directions
[11:46 PM] not_a_seagull: Which could a weakness?
[11:46 PM] not_a_seagull: be*
[11:47 PM] Alice: It's an interesting concept
[11:48 PM] Alice: But it sounds like it might be a bit silly
[11:48 PM] not_a_seagull: could be
[11:48 PM] Alice: Like granted, team bird errs on the side of lightheartedness
[11:49 PM] Alice: But if Thoth in another universe could manipulate this Thoth then why didn't they do it before? Or why couldn't this Thoth manipulate outside the universe
[11:49 PM] not_a_seagull: Yeah, that idea kinda falls apart
[11:50 PM] not_a_seagull: But what if, going back to the whole deity system, there was only one Prime!Thoth
[11:50 PM] not_a_seagull: And Prime!Thoth is trying to control multiple fragments of his power in other universes to conquer them
[11:50 PM] not_a_seagull: Since, maybe being tied to the Wellspring ties you to one universe and one universe only?
[11:53 PM] Alice: Interesting
[11:53 PM] Alice: I would think that a person or a group would need a good reason to traverse multiverses
[11:54 PM] Alice: It's less that he's tied to a singular universe; moreso that his bonds to the Wellspring diminish when he's far from the source(edited)
[11:54 PM] not_a_seagull: Good Idea
[11:54 PM] Alice: However that also has its issues: the wellspring is implied to be a more primordial multiversal source
[11:55 PM] not_a_seagull: As in: there's only one of it in the multiverse?
[11:55 PM] Alice: Something like that, yeah
[11:56 PM] not_a_seagull: Where is it implied?
[11:57 PM] Alice: Okay, to be fair, it wasn't implied, but i just think it would work better as a multiversal construct in the face of a parallel universes story
[11:57 PM] Alice: A boundless wellspring in every universe would get hairy and complicated
[11:58 PM] not_a_seagull: I see
[11:58 PM] Alice: And would lessen the concept of "boundless"
[11:59 PM] not_a_seagull: Hmm, what if Thoth didn't want the shadow to find the Boundless Wellspring in another universe, but rather, to bring the shadow to him, to gain knowledge about our universe?
[12:01 AM] not_a_seagull: What if Seshat managed to gain some kind of knowledge about how the multiverse is constructed, and is currently trying to find its way to Thoth?
October 8, 2018
[12:03 AM] Alice: ok sorry, are you talking about thoth's shadow a la paper mario?
[12:03 AM] Alice: just need to be clear since akheilos was established to be the Shadow
[12:03 AM] not_a_seagull: Shadow as in the knowledge of Thoth that was released from Seshat
[12:03 AM] not_a_seagull: I'll refer to it as Seshat!Shadow from now on to reduce confusion
[12:04 AM] Alice: gotcha
[12:04 AM] not_a_seagull: I imagined Seshat!Shadow as a sort of sentient collection of knowledge that's trying to find its way to its owner (Thoth)
[12:04 AM] not_a_seagull: And the Foundation is trying to stop it
[12:05 AM] not_a_seagull: That could be the plot of the 001, actually
[12:06 AM] Alice: and this is different from prime!seshat?
[12:07 AM] Alice: sorry i kinda lost my train of thought in this discussion
[12:07 AM] not_a_seagull: I imagined Seshat as a collection of knowledge made by Thoth, while Seshat!Shadow is that knowledge + sentience
[12:08 AM] Alice: so the knowledge came from a source, but the nature of the knowledge and its magnitude led it to gain its own "mind" so-to-speak and operate independently
[12:09 AM] not_a_seagull: Yeah
[12:10 AM] Alice: i do like the idea that knowledge isn't being referred to as an aspect of reality that one can draw from in this sense, but as a literal tangible source(edited)
[12:11 AM] not_a_seagull: I just came up with an angle… what if Seshat!Shadow didn't want to be reunited with Thoth?
[12:11 AM] Alice: that could go one of two ways. thoth is either the greater good in this scenario, or the big bad
[12:12 AM] not_a_seagull: I feel like that depends on how dangerous we make Seshat!Shadow
[12:13 AM] Alice: going back to the "why didn't they just do this during season 1?": it's not about how dangerous it is on its own, but its danger when manipulated, or when it becomes connected to the boundless wellspring
[12:14 AM] Alice: the fear of the evil strikes people more than the evil itself
[12:15 AM] Alice: (evil, danger, same thing imo)
[12:16 AM] not_a_seagull: Hmm, so we've established that Thoth wants Seshat!Shadow, and Seshat!Shadow doesn't want Thoth
[12:16 AM] not_a_seagull: What if the reason Thoth caused the Birdocalypse in this dimension is to find Seshat!Shadow?
[12:17 AM] Alice: seshat!shadow would be drawn to the mass of knowledge being lumped into a single spot
[12:17 AM] Alice: that spot being the noosphere
[12:17 AM] Alice: and the mass of knowledge being all of humanity's knowledge
[12:17 AM] Alice: yeah that's consistent with our lore so far
[12:18 AM] Alice: i would like to characterize seshat herself to some degree during all of this as well
[12:18 AM] not_a_seagull: What if Seshat!Shadow is sort of a "four-dimensional" object, where they exist in both the real world and the Noosphere
[12:18 AM] not_a_seagull: And agreed with that
[12:20 AM] Alice: four-dimensional in what sense? like how is the 4th dimension being interpreted here
[12:21 AM] Alice: i would shy away from an explicit "this is from the fourth dimension"
[12:21 AM] not_a_seagull: It intersects both the noosphere and the real world
[12:21 AM] not_a_seagull: Sort of like
[12:21 AM] not_a_seagull: uhh
[12:21 AM] not_a_seagull: a tesseract
[12:22 AM] not_a_seagull: I'd also like to shy away from "this is from another dimension"
[12:23 AM] Alice: the way i interpret these kinds of things, the noosphere is just another realm that has been formed by the connections of humanity over the lifespan of the human race, along with maybe some esoteric anomalous stuff to explain how it is all clustered together
[12:23 AM] not_a_seagull: Yeah, so maybe scratch that idea
[12:23 AM] Alice: the entire third dimension would be the groupings of all things perceived by a three-dimensional entity: the entire multiverse
[12:23 AM] Alice: and the 4th dimension is another layer that is even more complex on top of that
[12:24 AM] Alice: i mean i don't want to go too into it lol but ya
[12:24 AM] not_a_seagull: We have a plot, I think we also might need characters to accompany Seshat!Shadow
[12:24 AM] not_a_seagull: Help it hide from Thoth?
[12:26 AM] Alice: i would like if the accompanying characters didn't have physical forms, or are from a higher plane of existence and are just intersecting with this universe at a single point
[12:27 AM] Alice: i say this because seshat!shadow sounds like a more complex "character" and is associated with the intangible concept of Knowledge as a thing
[12:28 AM] not_a_seagull: I was thinking more of something along the lines of Iron Giant, where some people find this thing of indescribable power and help it out
[12:28 AM] Alice: ok that is a better idea
[12:29 AM] not_a_seagull: How do you snip discord conversations? I wanna put this in a sandbox or something
[12:29 AM] Alice: also we need to establish how seshat!shadow became its own thing. fleshing out how thoth and seshat interacting with this "shadow" before it became a shadow is vital in writing the story, i think
[12:30 AM] not_a_seagull: True